TO: File
FROM: FL
CC: BO
DATE: 11/10/06
RE: Mtg. on water and sewer with DIAND
A couple of weeks ago Jim Wincherauk requested a meeting to discuss DIAND’s August 30, 2006 reaction to the June 22, 2005 Lubicon water and sewer proposal. BO asked FL to set it up.
FL phoned Wincherauk. Wincherauk was out but returned FL’s call. When Wincherauk returned FL’s call he said he was returning FL’s call to discuss setting up "a housing program meeting".
FL said he was phoning about Wincherauk’s request to set up a meeting to discuss DIAND’s August 30, 2006 reaction to the June 22, 2005 Lubicon water and sewer proposal. Notably Wincherauk said it’s the same thing. (Discussion of water and sewer started several years ago with the feds insisting that the Lubicons provide water and sewer with new housing construction as part of new federal housing program requirements despite the fact there is no water and system in the community. During the 11/10 meeting the discussion came full circle with the feds proposing to put in toilets, install water and sewer tanks and upgrade driveways with housing money -- all related to provision of water and sewer services -- but still without providing a water and sewer system required to deliver the service.)
A meeting was proposed and agreed for this morning in LBL at 11 am. DIAND was represented by Wincherauk, Leon Gosselin, Hersh Hvatum and Wincherauk’s new boss Dan Krumpf. The Lubicons were represented by BO, WW, DW, LO and RJ supported by FL.
BO suggested that Wincherauk start the meeting since he’d requested it.
Wincherauk said "We came out to talk about Elder’s housing". He said "We now have some dollars to get this started".
Wincherauk said "The amount is $250,000". He said "We can get the project started".
Wincherauk said "We can get bathrooms in the houses". He said "We wanted to know if you’re interested in this approach".
BO said "We’ve been talking for a number of years about trying to do something for our elderly people". He said "We’ve been talking about providing water and sewer services to ten Elders families".
BO said "The Lubicon people have talked to a number of technical people about what would be required and what it would cost". He said "We have prepared and submitted a number of proposals".
BO said "We hope to hear that you have some magical way to stretch dollars since our cost estimates don’t match the dollar figure you’re talking about". He said "We want to hear what you have to say".
FL said he had a couple of preliminary questions before getting to the substance of DIAND’s August 30 reaction. He asked who the A/ARDG was that instructed RO officials not to proceed with discussions on the Lubicon water and sewer proposal "due to the outstanding claims issue". He asked why "the claims issue" should have the effect of interrupting discussions on the Lubicon water and sewer proposal.
Kumpf said "Jim Sissons was and is Acting ARDG".
Kumpf said "We deal with housing". He said "We administer this kind of stuff". He said "We don’t know much about the claims side".
Kumpf said "We don’t know why the claim would hold up the water and sewer talks". He said "We have identified in this budget 10 (housing) units".
FL said then Indian Affairs Minister Nault initiated the current discussion in 2003 saying that he wanted the RO to find ways to provide the Lubicons with basic services "even while land negotiations are underway". "Under these circumstances", he said, "I cannot understand why discussions on provision of basic services should have been interrupted "due to the outstanding claims issue".
Kumpf repeated "I don’t know the answer about claims". He said "We want to look at the budget and see if there’s interest in accessing dollars". "If the money is not spent", he said, "it goes back to Ottawa". He said "We want to get the dollars out so we don’t have to send the dollars back".
FL said "There are obviously lots of things related to housing that can be done with $250,000". He said "Housing conditions in Little Buffalo Lake are deplorable with two and three generations living in the same small 900 square foot bungalow".
"However", FL said, "one thing that cannot be done with $250,000 is provide the families of ten Elders with water and sewer service". He said "Please explain how you to propose to provide the families of ten Elders with water and sewer service with $250,000?"
Gosselin said "We’ve reviewed your (Lubicon proposal) numbers and your numbers are good except a little low because of inflation".
Gosselin said "Your cost estimate for cisterns and sewage tanks is $160,000". He said the third item in your budget is plumbing fixtures, materials and installation at $129,000". He said "We also want to look at up-grading driveways at $122,760". He said "That’s a total of $411,760".
"What we plan to do", Gosselin said, "is start the paper work -- get the wheels turning when we return to the Regional Office". He said "It might be possible to get a crack at more funds". He said "We can’t guarantee anything".
FL pointed out that Gosselin was talking about spending $411,760 on concrete tanks, toilets and gravel when by his own description he only had $250,000. He asked where the water is going to come from, how the water is going to be delivered to the cisterns, where the sewage is going to go and how it’s going to get there. He said Gosselin is proposing to spend more money than he had and was leaving out such key elements in providing water and sewer services as provision of water and disposal of sewage.
Gosselin said "I knew you were going to ask about water and water trucks and sewage". "As far as vehicles go", he said "we can’t make a commitment". "In the meantime", he said, "we’re going to have to contract out to get water".
Kumpf said "I’m fairly confident we can find an extra $161,000". He said "We can do the three items under housing -- the $411, 760".
FL said "Where does the money come from for the contract to provide the water?" He pointed out that hiring outsiders to truck water from Red Earth would cost over $220,000 a year and trucking it in from Peace River would cost over $270,000 a year. He pointed out that the Lubicons could build their own water treatment facility for less than it would take to hire outsiders to provide water for only one year, plus employ their own people and provide their own service.
FL asked "Who pumps out the sewage and where do they take it". He pointed out that it would cost over $187,000 a year to hire somebody to truck it to Red Earth and more than that to hire somebody to truck it to Peace River. He pointed out that the Lubicons could expand the existing Northlands sewage lagoon in Little Buffalo to handle the requirements of the ten families, plus anticipated post settlement sewage lagoon requirements, for less than it would take for outsiders to haul the sewage away for only one year, plus again employ their own people and provide their own service.
Gosselin said "We gave $35,000 to Sunrise Country to put in a water pipe from Peace River". He said "On the 21st of this month there is a meeting to request a proposal from 10 contractors".
FL asked "To build the pipeline?"
Gosselin said "Yes".
FL asked "From where to where?"
Gosselin said "From the Shell intake at the Peace River up the hill where there will be various pipelines to hook it up to". He said "We can’t use the Shell pipeline because it’s contaminated". He said "We will put in a pipeline beside it".
FL asked if they are still talking about using the old Shell pipeline from the Shell in-situ plant to Cadotte Lake and then building a new pipeline from Cadotte Lake to Little Buffalo Lake.
Gosselin said "No, we can’t use the existing pipelines". He said "They have been somehow compromised". He said "Chemical contamination". He said "There is also a concern the old pipeline is corroded".
FL asked "How does that work?" He asked "Are you proposing that the province pay for construction of a new 65 mile long pipeline from the Peace River to Little Buffalo; that Sunrise County would own and operate the pipeline; and that Indian Affairs buy water from Sunrise County for the Lubicons?"
Gosselin said "Yes".
FL asked "What happens to the capital construction agreement negotiated between the Lubicons and the federal government as part of a settlement of Lubicon land rights which provides for the development and treatment of an on-reserve subsurface Lubicon water supply under Lubicon control, employing Lubicon people and administered by the Lubicon peoples’ own government?"
Kumpf said "I can’t answer that".
FL said "This Sunrise County pipeline proposal was first brought to the Lubicons by Sunrise County in 2003". He said "Sunrise County wanted the Lubicons to contribute money, or more precisely for the Lubicons to agree to have the federal government contribute money on their behalf, to do a regional water study the purpose of which was to develop a regional water system based on the old Shell pipeline built by Shell in 1979 to transport water from Cadotte Lake the Shell in-situ plant.
FL said the Shell plant drew so much water out of Cadotte Lake in only a few months that Cadotte Lake froze solid and killed all the fish. He said Shell therefore built a second pipeline to the Peace River leaving them with a white elephant pipeline to Cadotte Lake which in 2003 Shell was trying to peddle to Sunrise County and around which Sunrise Country was proposing to do a study to develop a regional water supply system.
FL said the Lubicons declined to agree to contribute money to do the study and indicated that they wanted to proceed with development of on-reserve subsurface water resources negotiated and agreed with the federal government as part of a settlement of Lubicon land rights. He said Indian Affairs ignored the Lubicon position, surreptitiously contributed money on the Lubicons’ behalf to do the study, and has been meeting monthly ever since with Sunrise County developing this proposal. He said all of this raises serious questions about federal motives, intentions and objectives.
To complicate matters further, FL said federal and provincial spokespeople are now telling reporters that they offered the Lubicons water and sewer services but Lubicon leadership rejected the offer and are holding Lubicon members hostage in order to gain sympathy from international organizations. He said what’s going on here is clearly more complicated than simply a well-intentioned effort to provide the Lubicon people with water and sewer services. He said Canadian government should at least make an offer before claiming Lubicon leaders rejected it and are holding their own people hostage in order to gain sympathy from international organizations.
BO said "You have received several proposals from us". "If the objective is to meet and work together to provide our elderly people with services", he said, "we are prepared to work with you". He asked "Is that what this discussion is about?" He asked "Are we talking about an interim solution while we negotiate settlement of Lubicon land rights as we originally agreed, or are we talking about something else?"
Kumpf said "We can provide this kind of financial resources". He said "We want to know if the Lubicons are interested?"
BO said "We are interested if the objective is to provide our elderly people with services independent of the Sunrise County pipeline".
FL asked if the $250,000 in housing money can be used for anything other than concrete tanks, toilets and gravel without provision for water or disposal of sewage.
Gosselin said $25,000 per unit can be used to build houses but the Lubicons would have to provide the rest. He said $18,000 per unit can be used for renovations but...
Wincherauk interrupted and said "We’re talking about contracting short-term until we have the money to buy the trucks".
BO asked "If the objective is to provide our elderly people with water and sewer services, how are we going to do it?"
Wincherauk said "Getting back to the (Sunrise County) water line, it has been designed to be able to provide the Lubicons with water if the Lubicons want the water". "If we get underground water as part of a settlement", he said, "you don’t have to use it".
BO said "The Department put money in the study on our behalf after we said we did not want to participate in the study". "During negotiations", he said, "the feds gave a grant to some of our neighboring communities to buy a sawmill to cut timber taken from our unceded traditional Territory while still negotiating rights to that timber with us". He said "Things like this make it very hard to take things said by federal representatives at face value".
FL said "There will be a Sunrise County meeting on the 21st to discuss asking for bids to build the pipeline". He said "Construction projects are being delayed, postponed and cancelled all over Alberta because of escalating costs and shortage of labor due to the economic boom". He asked "How long do you think it will take to build this pipeline from the Peace River?"
Gosselin said "Years".
FL said "Jim says you’re talking about contracting out short term until there’s money to buy trucks". He asked "Can you give me a little better fix on what you mean by ‘short-term’?"
BO said "I met with George (Arcand) a couple of weeks ago". BO said "He said we have a little bit of money and can start".
BO asked "Are you saying this is what you’ve got right now and we should do as much as we can and keep looking".
Gosselin said "The objective is to do the paperwork to get these items done". He said "We can go back for more money".
Wincherauk said "$250,000 is all we’ve got right now".
FL said "The government of Canada is in worse shape than I realized if $250,000 is all you’ve got". He suggested that the problem when government officials claim lack of money is not so much lack of money as lack of priority.
Kumpf said "I think we can find the $160,000". He said "We’ll look for more".
"If you want the resources", Gosselin said, "we have to get on it or we’ll lose it".
BO said "I hope you guys appreciate the concern we have with this pipeline". "If the province services the area", he said, "outsiders will come in". He said "That’s assertion of provincial jurisdiction over our area and jeopardizes our land rights". He said "That’s a real fear for our people".
BO said "We will take a closer look at what you’ve presented". He said "Fred will get back to Dan or Jim with our answer next week".
BO said "We’ve been trying to get water and sewer for our elderly people for some time". He said "We would like to get that done for them".
Gosselin said "When we met (on May 10, 2005) the three of us here -- Jim, Hersh and I -- put stuff in writing". "Finally", he said, "somebody heard us".
Glory Hallelujah. It certainly is a wondrous thing what obstacles can be overcome and men of good will can accomplish when they set their minds to it.